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Some people can't see mental images

182 points by petalmind

by andy99

33 subcomments

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

by zephyrthenoble

7 subcomments

I think an interesting different way to talk about aphantasia is not, "Can you see an apple when you close your eyes" but more along the linked of, "Can you mentally edit the visual reality you see?"
A common exercise while being in the back seat of a car while I was young was to imagine someone in a skateboard riding along the power lines on the side of the road, keeping pace with our car.
It's not literally overriding my vision, it's almost like a thin layer, less than transparent, over reality. But specifically, it's entirely in my mind. I would never confuse that imagery with reality...
Having said that, I think that is related to the way our brains process visual information. I've had an experience when I'm driving that, when I recognize where I am, coming from a new location in not familiar with, I feel like suddenly my vision expands in my peripheral vision. I think this is because my brain offloads processing to a faster mental model of the road because I'm familiar with it. I wonder if that extra "vision" is actually as ephemeral as my imagined skateboarder.

by happytoexplain

8 subcomments

I have no real basis for this, but I always suspected that the majority of differences in ability to picture things is actually just a difference in semantics about terms like "visualizing", "picturing", etc. I don't think anybody is "literally" envisioning things, as in hallucination. On the other end, I don't think anybody is actually unable to "think of" what a thing looks like. But it's really difficult to objectively describe what it's like to picture something in your head - so difficult, in fact, that I can see some people calling it "literally summoning an image" and others calling it "not seeing anything at all", while both talking about the exact same thing.
Not that there isn't a difference in ability, just that it might not be as dramatic/binary as we seem to think.

by pfgallagher

2 subcomments

I have aphantasia. Like many others, I am able to see images when I dream and very rarely in a hypnagogic state.
My partner is on the opposite side of the spectrum; she can conjure mental images with ease. Our differences in that respect have led to a lot of interesting conversations.
I think aphantasia is quite misunderstood by people able to visualize. I can remember how things look, have no issues identifying faces, have a strong spatial understanding of places I've been, etc. It's hard to describe precisely; we just remember things differently.

by Matterless

4 subcomments

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things, but instead only the circumstances, the trivia, the conclusions, and all of those can be very granular.
Words exist for me in the space beyond my lips, or my fingertips; what that feels like, in the moment, is that it is the act of externalization of words which makes them come into being, but not for a moment are they ever out of my control.
I can't remember the sound of my mother's voice. Not really. Of course if I heard it in a recording it would be as recognizable as any voice, and in fact when I watch animated shows, like classic King of the Hill for example, I'm extremely good at picking out all the celebrity voices and I'm often surprised that I can identify a voice I didn't know that I knew.
I used to have an internal monologue. I used to be able to picture things. That all went away in my teens. Not only can I somewhat remember what that was like, I'm able to experience vivid internal pictures and internal sounds sometimes in the moments just before I'm fully asleep. It doesn't happen very frequently, but it's enjoyable when it does.
And that's it. If you have any questions for thisaphantasic non-self-speaker, have at it.

by ourguile

2 subcomments

https://archive.ph/iMdvd
I have aphantasia and it always astounds me when I see an article like this, or hear a friend talking about it (about not having it) and realize that their experience of the world is so fundamentally different than my own.

by tekacs

7 subcomments

For those who find themselves wondering whether they 'have' aphantasia or not, I would really recommend looking at the aphantasia apples:
https://lianamscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/f4c55-1_b...
As in: if you look at this image, can you place yourself on a scale of 1 - 5 of as to the fidelity with which you can picture an apple if you try to imagine it?
I'm a 5 for example, and in asking many people this question I've gotten a solid spectrum of answers from 1 - 5. Generally in a single group of a handful of people I'll get several different numbers.

by adt2bt

1 subcomments

This has always been interesting for me, as I think I have aphantasia but also can vividly experience taste in the same manner as if I'm eating foods.
In other words, if I think about, say, spaghetti & meatballs, I can feel the exact sensation of the taste of the spaghetti & meatballs. I can even vary aspects of the dish without much effort (e.g. adding dusted parmesan, basil, the pasta is more/less al dente, etc). I use this all the time when cooking, as I 'think with my tongue' and pre-taste what I think a dish will taste like as I'm considering what ingredients to add or different techniques to follow.
I think my experience with visualizing taste is what some people can do in their minds eye with images & sounds, yet I can barely visualize any images in my head when I close my eyes. Frustrating, but gives me a bit of hope. In my younger years I did not have this virtual food tasting ability, but I think I slowly gained it by paying close attention to the experience of eating food I made in order to improve my cooking ability.
I wonder if I can pay similar attention to the world around me and develop image visualization abilities over time.

by rogual

0 subcomment

I do have the "second visual canvas" people here are talking about, but the thing about mine, and I haven't seen anyone say this yet, is that I don't have full control of it.
For example, I have a memory from childhood of visualizing a yellow bucket, and it showed up in my mind's eye with big cartoon eyes. I tried to delete the eyes because I just wanted a normal yellow bucket, but they kept coming back.
Also, when reading Harry Potter as a kid, Severus Snape always showed up in my mind's eye with the head of a crocodile. I remember telling my brain, no, he's just a guy, just give him a normal man's head, but it never worked. Even now when someone mentions Severus Snape I see him with the crocodile head.
Anyone else, or am I just nuts?

by abetusk

0 subcomment

I've only skimmed the article but it seems to relate memory with aphantasia, which I haven't heard before. I'm a bit skeptical of this take.
Note that people aphantasia tend to score better at scene recall, at least in some metrics, than people without ("Those without visual imagery show deficits in object but not spatial memory" [0]). I think the idea is that people with aphantasia tend to build language "scaffolding" to describe relations rather than relying on a visual representation.
If true, this might be why people with aphantasia tend to gravitate towards some engineering and science disciplines.
There's a lot of people lamenting the loss of minds eye visual imagery but a potential benefit is to have a lifetime's practice of using language to reason and quantify relationships between pieces of knowledge.
[0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7856239/

by tolerance

1 subcomments

Some people have more vivid imaginations than others and a vivid imagination entails more than just noodling and doodling well. Evidently.
People vary in their capacity to reason with things. People who “see” things with their eyes closed probably don’t believe that they are physically seeing them (i.e., with their actual eyeballs). People who can’t...probably can; they just expect to actually see what it is that they're thinking about.
This is a sensitive subject. At its core it beckons forth for questions of spiritual import.
Is society fit to address something as abstract as this problem in an age where “Chatbot psychosis” is becoming a thing?

by FloorEgg

0 subcomment

For me I can "see" things in my minds eye and it almost doesn't matter if my eyes are closed or not. The detail isn't perfect and it's unlike anything else I would ever "see", such as a blurry image or simple drawing. I can manipulate the image in my mind, rotate it or fold it over, etc.
The longer I think about a specific part the more detail I can see in that part. Unlike when I look around and see infinite detail all at once, my minds eye only sees the detail when I really focus on generating it.

by Amorymeltzer

1 subcomments

>Aphantasics might skip over descriptive passages in books—since description aroused no images in their minds, they found it dull—or, because of such passages, avoid fiction altogether. Some aphantasics found the movie versions of novels more compelling, since these supplied the pictures that they were unable to imagine. Of course, for people who did have imagery, seeing a book character in a movie was often unsettling—because they already had a sharp mental image of the character which didn’t look like the actor, or because their image was vague but just particular enough that the actor looked wrong, or because their image was barely there at all and the physical solidity of the actor conflicted with that amorphousness.
I definitely have aphantasia, but this description really didn't connect with me. I don't have a mental image of something, I have the vague sense of knowing what that thing looks like. I read both fiction and non-fiction fervently. I frequently am annoyed at film adaptation, since they conflict with what (I have a vague sense of knowing) the character looked like.
However:
>Some aphantasics found the movie versions of novels more compelling, since these supplied the pictures that they were unable to imagine.
I do find that, once I've seen a movie or show adaptation, that portrayal becomes much more compelling in the mind than the book. The quintessential example for me is the snake exhibit's glass in the first Harry Potter book/movie.

by zeryx

3 subcomments

That's me! I can visualize processes really well, and complex systems. But ask me to picture or hear something in my head and I'll just stare at you.

by sharkjacobs

6 subcomments

> He knew, of course, that people talked about “picturing” or “visualizing,” but he had always taken this to be just a metaphorical way of saying “thinking.” Now it appeared that, in some incomprehensible sense, people meant these words literally.
This is the quintessential aphantasic experience. I still struggle to believe that other people "see" things in their heads.

by vanadium1st

1 subcomments

Speaking of the Apple test, as many other commenters here I truly believe that people who describe themselves as being at 1 are actually much closer to 4, they just aren’t aware of it or don’t understand the concept well. https://lianamscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/f4c55-1_b...
I’m an artist - I draw professionally and studied drawing in a group setting. It seems like a profession that would require the highest level of visual imagination. And I wish I could see clear pictures in my head, but I don’t. I need to have a reference in front of me, constantly compare it with my sketch, and refine it using knowledge and techniques that took years to learn.
When discussing this concept with my artist peers, many say they’re at 1. But they clearly aren’t - I can see that in their work process. There’s an immediate difference in art quality depending on whether the artist is drawing from reference or not. If someone could truly see the picture in their head and draw from it, they could skip years of art training and become good almost immediately. Such a genius would be clearly obvious to their peers. But I haven’t met a single person like that - it seems like everyone works with roughly the same hardware as I do and has to develop the same workarounds to become good.
I believe that Kim Jung Gi was a 1. I’m sure there were other historic geniuses with such a superhuman ability. But I’m also sure that 99% of people just aren’t there - whether they admit it or not.

by khazhoux

0 subcomment

Something not usually discussed is the different kinds of internal sensing:
- Seeing images (what we usually talk about). Can you see your loved ones’ faces in your mind’s eye? Can you picture an elephant? Can you hold an image still or is it an ever-shifting scramble?
- Seeing color. In your mind’s eye, can you conjure up just the colors green, red, yellow…? No shape or imagery needed, but only the plain color. To my surprise and delight I discovered I can visualize colors without being able to see any actual image.
- Seeing movement. Independent of actual imagery, can you visualize pure motion. Again to my surprise, I can visualize movement without any associated imagery. Like, I can imagine a runner on a treadmill and clearly see the motion of the arms and legs going back and forth — but I don’t actually see the arms and legs at all. I’m seeing only the first derivative of an image, like a Schlieren image.
- Hearing music in your head. Can you pick out the different instruments? Can you anticipate the guitar stab in the 2nd verse. Can you hear the harmonica in Karma Chameleon even though you’ve only ever listened to that song a couple of times, and probably not in over 20 years?
- (might be same as above) Can you hear people’s voices? Can you randomly conjure up your parents or Obama or Tina Fey counting to ten?
Any others I’ve missed?

by yeellow

0 subcomment

From my recent experience I believe you can train your mental vision, at least to some extent. I play chess and the ability to imagine a position and moves in your head is quite common among chess players, but I was always struggling with it. I could not see the board clearly in my mind and when I was doing exercises on telling the color of a given square I was checking coordinates parity, as I could not see it in my mind. Only recently I tried to train chess vision starting with 3x3 board, than extending to 4x4 and finally glueing 8x8 with 4 4x4 boards. To my surprise after a while I started seeing the board more clearly and I could memorize some simple positions. I've noticed that my general mental vision improved significantly at the same time. If you don't play chess you can start with playing tic tac toe in your head, focusing on seeing the board and marks. I think such exercise is better than imaging an apple, because you can objectively check if what you see is correct. Any board game would do, but start with a small board, and extend only when you feel comfortable. Imagining horse moves on a 4x4 board, focusing on seeing square colors helped me a lot.

by Jaynes

0 subcomment

Vestiges of the bicameral mind pre consciousness. The cartesian theatre replaced the external "voice" or volition that gave impetus. Think Old Testament "voices" which were external to the hearer and the need of external laws as in tablets, eventually replaced by internal thinking and Laws on the heart which are internal. Old to New, rough to smooth, external objective to internal subjective thinking and mind mapping

by mandolingual

0 subcomment

I think it's easier to square the circle about this by focusing on 'internal voice' - For those with an internal voice, where do the words come from? We don't pick them from a conscious word bank (mostly), they arise from the subconscious brain thinking about the topic at hand. So to sever the 'internal voice' step of thinking and go from the sub/semi-conscious to the page is if anything just more efficient. It's interesting to think about what we actually gain from conscious articulation of words and images - the benefits of visualization seem more clear cut(though more limited than non-aphantasia-havers might assume) than internal vocalization.

by WithinReason

2 subcomments

I wonder what happens when you e.g. flash a 5 digit number to a person with aphantasia for say 0.1 seconds. Can they read it from memory? Or are they worse at this task than people with mental imagery? How about mentally rotating 3D objects?

by fellowniusmonk

1 subcomments

I developed aphantasia around 13 after a series of heart procedures where I had to be under.
Evaluating qualia in others is extremely difficult/philosophically impossible, I have pre/post expierence with both states of being.
I can still somewhat conjure up imagery from prior to the procedure series, it almost feels like I can see them, my mother's face, my father face, kinda of, it did not effect my dreams or ability to have imagery in my edge of dreaming state, not immediately at least.
I went from being very imaginative to trying to surf that half awake state in the mornings because it was such a loss.
At this point it's all mostly gone. My memory is entirely text strings now.

by jibbit

2 subcomments

If you could see a photographic-quality image in your mind, you could answer questions about it the way you’d answer questions about a photograph in front of you. 'what’s written on the sign?' 'how many windows?' That's photographic memory. Since that’s not real, the 'normal visualization' everyone's comparing themselves to doesn’t exist either. Yet we keep treating as credible people who assert what others experience based on not experiencing it themselves. This is epistemically bankrupt.

by Simulacra

5 subcomments

Is this related to internal monologue? I don't see mentioned in my view.

by pitdicker

0 subcomment

There is an interesting reddit community 'CureAphantasia' with resources to develop your ability to visualize mental images. Together there are ca. 25 posts that offer a complete guide that might as well have been a book.
This seems like a good start: https://www.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/comments/xgtyd3/trad...

0 subcomment

by aaroninsf

0 subcomment

Based on comments here I guess in addition to having no internal monolog, I also have no "mental images."
I can imagine how a specific voice sounds, or singing, etc.; and I can summon a vague visual impression of something,
But ITT people are describing a level of detail I can't comprehend. I have no images I can "study" and I can't solve visual puzzles in my head. I can't rotate arbitrary objects and tell you the shape of their outline.
I guess some of you can do this? Jealous AF.

by paulsutter

0 subcomment

What about visualizing physical systems. Billiards, air flowing over a wing, what's causing the flaws in an anodizing process. This is really more important because you can't invent machines (or even diagnose them) if you cant visualize how a physical system operates.
This is an clear shortcoming of LLMs/RLHF. They can talk a good line about any subject, but become hopelessly confused when discussing a physical system. Because they just knows the words, they dont really have any idea about the physical world.

0 subcomment

by hondadriver

0 subcomment

Same here. I can't see, hear nor smell anything apart from what is really there.
I can 'imagine' in great detail, have a good visual/ auditory memory, but there is no real picture or sound. It is black / silent. I never forget a face just can't picture them.
I found out about this via an article posted here when I was 45 years old, now 4 years ago.
It never felt and does feel like a disability in any way.
Dreams in contrast are a full sensory experience for me, so the route back from memory to senses is there, only it is blocked when I am awake.

by mackeye

0 subcomment

i can visualize only faint wireframes and blobs, if that makes sense. the closest analog is, my internal monologue can speak, as if i were to physically speak, but i cannot "hear" it with my ears. i can visualize "where" each part of a composite scene should go (e.g., my laptop on a table, with a whiteboard in front of me, and a window to my left), and rotate a representation of the scene, but there is no visual component aside from a very plain outline, if i concentrate.
speaking to people who claim to be able to visualize colorful scenes in 3d, with sound, etc., and truly see the scene before them --- there is probably _some_ variance. i wouldn't say it affects my cognition, but how could i really know? i've never asked my friends, but i imagine the percentage of people who use 3d visualization to reason, e.g., complex math, is small, given the number of people i've seen use the right-hand rule on exams :) (especially given aphantasia is supposedly quite rare).
i attended a talk recently on experience with organic chemistry pedagogy at a university for deaf students. few requisite terms are defined in american sign language, so the professor formed a committee to create 400 or so signs. "tetrahedral" uses four fingers in a tetrahedral formation, "chiral" moves one hand about the other to simulate a mirror, etc. education of stereochemistry wasn't necessarily heavy on visualization, as you can draw the molecule and reason about it without conceptualization in 3d, but i caught that i'd often look at clocks for R/S rotation problems (where clockwise-counterclockwise in 3d was relevant).

by kaffekaka

0 subcomment

Given how diffently people describe various phenomena which are easier to actually compare, I have lost most hope of quantitatively understanding aphantasia. Of course people differ in ability to visualize thing and using "the minds eye", but exactly what they mean when describing their experience is only confusing.
Many, many people are so very imprecise with words. And we humans are generally bad at analyzing ourselves vs others.

by tsoukase

1 subcomments

I am sure any statement "Some people can't X", for X a mental trait, capacity, capability or measure is valid. The thing is how often such happens and how the spectrum severity distributes between normal and total absence.
Exactly the same holds for "Some people can X more than average"

by ectospheno

1 subcomments

I tried telling people I couldn’t. I don’t mention it anymore because inevitably there is a person who doesn’t believe me and won’t stop trying to argue I’m wrong.

by deadbabe

1 subcomments

I wouldn’t doubt that maybe there’s also some condition where people can’t see physical images at all. Like they know where stuff is because signals go to their brain but if you ask them to describe what they are seeing they can’t, they see nothing. It’s really not much more bizarre than aphantasia.

by levocardia

2 subcomments

The most astounding thing to me (able to form mental images just fine thanks) is that aphantasia does not cause more problems. Naively I would have assumed such a condition would cause problems navigating abstract problems, nearly as badly as actual blindness impairs physical navigation.

by kaffekaka

0 subcomment

Looking at it from another direction, sometimes daydreaming can get so intense that what is in front of your eyes disappear. Internal imagery completely takes over. Does this happen to people who identify as aphantasiacs? Is everyone able to daydream?

by runekaagaard

2 subcomments

Thats me to a tee. I also don't have a inner dialogue when thinking through a problem:)

0 subcomment

by dang

0 subcomment

Ok, here's the 'related' list that I could come up with. Anything I missed?
(Note: lists of previous threads aren't meant as criticism for a topic being repetitive! On the contrary, the classic topics always reappear and that's fine when the new article is interesting. Lists like this are just for curious readers who might want more.)
Aphantasia and Psychedelics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45438296 - Oct 2025 (117 comments)
I do not remember my life and it's fine - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44196576 - June 2025 (223 comments)
Most self-reported aphantasics also reported weak or absent auditory imagery - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42534859 - Dec 2024 (6 comments)
What do you visualize while programming? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41869237 - Oct 2024 (167 comments)
What happens in a mind that can't 'see' mental images - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41138338 - Aug 2024 (432 comments)
Aphantasia Is No Creativity-Killer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40810777 - June 2024 (1 comment)
Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40757775 - June 2024 (401 comments)
Deep Aphantasia: a visual brain with minimal influence from priors? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39951990 - April 2024 (114 comments)
Aphantasia and hyperphantasia: exploring imagery vividness extremes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39887661 - March 2024 (89 comments)
Aphantasics less likely to be engaged with a short story, but still enjoy it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39113343 - Jan 2024 (2 comments)
Aphantasia: The inability to create mental imagery - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38877146 - Jan 2024 (1 comment)
Poll: Can you visualize details with your eyes closed? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38660632 - Dec 2023 (60 comments)
What happens in the brain while daydreaming? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38654388 - Dec 2023 (146 comments)
My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37789989 - Oct 2023 (50 comments)
My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37784984 - Oct 2023 (60 comments)
How to see bright, vivid images in your mind’s eye (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37718999 - Sept 2023 (232 comments)
Images in the mind’s eye are quick sketches that lack simple, real-world details - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36807533 - July 2023 (88 comments)
Aphantasia: Picture This? Some Just Can’t (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36723060 - July 2023 (2 comments)
How blind photographers visualize the world - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36719490 - July 2023 (48 comments)
Ask HN: It seems I lost imagination, what to do? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34862427 - Feb 2023 (41 comments)
Aphantasia: Ex-Pixar chief Ed Catmull says 'my mind's eye is blind' (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31862468 - June 2022 (1 comment)
Ask HN: Do you think in words or pictures? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31684070 - June 2022 (29 comments)
Aphantasia: Not Everyone Can Picture Things - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31377295 - May 2022 (5 comments)
Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind (2016) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31153061 - April 2022 (1 comment)
Pupils Reveal ‘Aphantasia’ – The Absence of Visual Imagination - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31121556 - April 2022 (111 comments)
Aphantasia, or how not to do math in your head (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30573004 - March 2022 (2 comments)
How do you visualize code? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29979958 - Jan 2022 (86 comments)
I Can’t See You but I’m Not Blind - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29551579 - Dec 2021 (306 comments)
Aphantasia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29365277 - Nov 2021 (276 comments)
Not spooked by Halloween ghost stories? You may have aphantasia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29049356 - Oct 2021 (10 comments)
Picture This? Some Just Can’t (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28997320 - Oct 2021 (1 comment)
Simple test reveals if your mental images are more vivid than other people's - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27669211 - June 2021 (146 comments)
Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27588905 - June 2021 (1 comment)
Many People Have a Vivid ‘Mind’s Eye,’ While Others Have None at All - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27437001 - June 2021 (31 comments)
Seeing things a different way; simple test for aphantasia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532946 - Sept 2020 (1 comment)
People who can't see things in their mind could have memory trouble too: study - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23689667 - June 2020 (147 comments)
Picture This? Some Just Can’t (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22800815 - April 2020 (103 comments)
Aphantasia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20267445 - June 2019 (72 comments)
Aphantasia: 'My mind's eye is blind' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19618927 - April 2019 (424 comments)
The blind mind: No sensory visual imagery in aphantasia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18799550 - Jan 2019 (100 comments)
What it’s like to be unable to visualize anything - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11730505 - May 2016 (11 comments)
Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894 - April 2016 (202 comments)
Aphantasia: A life without mental images - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10148792 - Aug 2015 (73 comments)
Aphantasia: A Life Without Mental Images - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10121678 - Aug 2015 (2 comments)

by jedberg

0 subcomment

I have no mind's eye, and neither does my wife. Neither of us even realized people can actually see images in their head until recently.
Our children appear to have a mind's eye though.

by mannanj

1 subcomments

Flouride calcifying the pineal gland, the center of visualization internally, doesn't help.

0 subcomment

by abstractspoon

0 subcomment

Does that mean they also can't dream?

by neRok

1 subcomments

Regarding "a propensity to hold grudges" and "easily move on, forget, not hold grudges": I find this to be the case. I can easily hold a grudge, because it's like the grudge is a post-it-note stuck to the front of my book-of-knowledge. This means I can readily recall the grudge, and that I can also easily forget/move-on from the grudge (just remove the note).
Continuing with the post-it-note analogy, the note can only hold a small amount of information, and so the grudge will be recorded as something simple like "fuck ___, they're an arrogant twat". So then the situation arises where you're talking to someone else and they ask "what do you think about ___?"; and so you answer "I can't stand them, they're so arrogant"; to which they respond "oh really, how so?"; and you can't give an answer, because it wasn't written on the note.
I think this ties in with memories not making you feel the relevant emotions, because the emotion you felt was also just saved as a "fact". I have found though that if I step through all the facts of an "event" and consider each "moment" along the way, that I can often generate the relevant emotion. So say I was remembering an argument, I can remember various facts about the argument and that I was angry about it, but I can't feel that anger. But if I walk through the moments, like `they said this, which made me think that, to which I rightly responded with...`, then eventually I'll start to feel angry just like I would have.
For an analogy on how I think memories are stored differently: then for non-aphantasiacs, I reckon their brain must save `memory.zip`, which contains `video, audio, smells, emotions, etc`. For a person like myself with aphantasia however, it's like I asked ChatGPT for a summary of `memory.zip`, and then I only saved the summary.
Saying that though, I do wonder about the connection between "fact based memories" and aphantasia's lack of mental imagery. Because if >50% of the usefulness of `memory.zip` is from the video, but you can't "see" the video because you aphantasia — then has your brain decided/learned to not bother saving `memory.zip` and instead just save the summary, or are all components of `memory.zip` also corrupt/unplayable?

by dvsgaevsvsgavsv

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Mental images are a distraction from what is here right now. Be here now. Not be here yesterday or be here tomorrow..

by jamiek88

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Must be a boring wank.

by gxs

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I wonder if this explains at all why I've never had the need to diagram anything before I build it - whether it be software or something concrete like a cabinet - I just don't
I work very much like my dad, as I build I just refer to the image in my head
On the other hand, some people keep meticulous notes and diagrams about what they are going to do
This isn't a knock - I have some very sharp co-workers that do better work in some areas even than myself who need to compulsively diagram/take notes
Each has its pros and cons. For me the pros are I can get to building super quickly. It means on a microlevel I can explain things to people who will help with the build in great detail and make sure they "build the right thing"
On the other hand, the con is communicating at a macro level. I don't have anything diagrammed out typically, or notes even, so sometimes it feels to people like they are working with a black box and I have to make a conscious effort to document and diagram
Interesting stuff
For the people here debating whether they have it or not: my take away from many years of therapy is that when it comes to mental stuff like this, it's pretty much just whatever you say it is and how much it impacts your life
If you think you have OCD but it's not interfering with your day to day life, you're probably fine, even if you feel like it's overboard
On the other hand, even mild OCD can be devastating to a different person if they feel like it's making their life hell
So while not quite the same thing, if you think you have aphantasia and you think it's to the point where it's affecting your life in one way or another, than you probably do
If you think you have it but you don't really notice/care and feel like you get by just fine, then you might or might not
Moral of the story is that I hope it's just a thought exercise for you and nothing you're sweating about

by incomingpain

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I have aphantasia and autism. There are pros and cons. It seems to be the reason we're good at tech.
I dont have a narrator neither. No voices in my head at all. If im talking to myself, im saying it outloud. But imagine as well, there's little to no distraction. We can focus on what we want. But it's also amazing to see other people in society who are clearly hearing voices in their head and completely and utterly distracted from day 2 day life. It's like they are possessed by demons in the bad cases.
>a vulnerability to trauma
But because of aphantasia, we dont ever qualify for PTSD. A key part of PTSD is flashbacks and rumination that we dont get.
>emotions and memory
Since memories dont have a visual aspect, the emotional impact of memories is greatly reduced.
>meditation
Since we dont get distracted, we are naturally significantly better at meditation.

by mykolivy

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by socrateswasone

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by timonoko

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by pessimizer

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I simply do not buy any aspect of this. It is absolutely untestable. It's not just that I don't think people who can't see mental images exist, I don't think that you can prove that anyone does see mental images. It's pure introspection and self-reporting, and half of the scientists named had very odd, old-timey standards of evidence that led them to many very wrong conclusions in their fields.
I couldn't say whether I, myself, have any mental images. I wouldn't even know what it meant to see without eyes. Does that mean that I don't have mental images, or does that mean that I have them so easily that they pass without notice? Or does it mean that this is horseshit, and the consequences of it very much not profound or even detectable?
People's self-reported subjective experiences, about any subject, are almost worthless. You are even an unreliable narrator to yourself. The burden of proof lies on the people who would claim these mind ghosts, not the people that deny them. These descriptions are all so much poetry, so literary.
Eric Schwitzgebel has done a lot of work on introspection, and reminds us of things like how we thought we all dreamed in black and white before the invention of the color television, and we thought that dreaming in color was a sign of mental illness; and how blind people who experienced "blindsight" had no idea that they were reflexively echolocating until you covered their ears and tested them again.
People can have entire, sound chains of reasoning that they are only aware of the conclusions of (and unaware of the process even existing.) We are not aware of all of what we're thinking or how. Our self-perception relies as much or more on our self-images than actual recall of our experiences.
Also, going through severe trauma and saying you see the world differently afterwards is not evidence of anything. If it was brain trauma, it'd be surprising if you didn't have a different understanding of the world during and after your recovery.
I understand this will be downvoted by people who have their self-image tied up in this, or synesthesia, or any number of untestable hypothetical mental states that are painted as mysterious superpowers. I do think it helps to remind ourselves in these times how far just babbling the most likely thing can get us, now that we're in the age of LLMs. There doesn't have to be anything inside.
edit: I've been paid as an artist at times in my life, and very much like to draw, and I still have no idea if I have any mental imagery. It's just not a concept I can attach any meaning to.
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edit2: I entirely forgot that there's a specific essay on this subject by Schwitzgebel.
How Well Do We Know Our Own Conscious Experience? The Case of Visual Imagery
> Philosophers tend to assume that we have excellent knowledge of our own current conscious experience or "phenomenology". I argue that our knowledge of one aspect of our experience, the experience of visual imagery, is actually rather poor. Precedent for this position is found among the introspective psychologists of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Two main arguments are advanced toward the conclusion that our knowledge of our own imagery is poor. First, the reader is asked to form a visual image, and it is expected that answering questions about certain basic features of that experience will be difficult. If so, it seems reasonable to suppose that people could be mistaken about those basic features of their own imagery. Second, it is observed that although people give widely variable reports about their own experiences of visual imagery, differences in report do not systematically correlate with differences on tests of skills that psychologists have often supposed to require visual imagery, such as mental rotation, visual creativity, and visual memory.
https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Imagery.htm
other links:
Why Did We Think We Dreamed in Black and White? https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/DreamB&W.htm
How Well Do We Know Our Own Conscious Experience? The Case of Human Echolocation https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Echo.htm
The Unreliability of Naive Introspection https://faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Naive.htm