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Hacker News Hacker NewsNow it’s just a way to make the number perpetually go up, sucking every last drop of value out of the system.
Plus the complete lack of vision or strategy from Google’s senior leadership.
Meanwhile a single Swede with a single desktop class machine in his living room created a search engine so good that I would often switch to it when Google failed.
These days I use Kagi, which has prioritization and block lists (which I don't use because the results are good out of the box).
Wanna know what is really interesting about the Kagi story?
While Kagi is building its own index, for a long time they were kind of reselling a wrapped version of Google + Bing results, but still were extremely much better IMO.
I have two theories:
- either Kagi has some seriously smart systems that read in the first tens of results and reshuffle them
- or more likely in my opinion the reason why results have been so good is because kagi has api access which bypass the "query expander and stupidifier"[1] on the way in to Google and the personalization thing on the way out. That way they just interact with the core of Google search which somehow still works.
[1]: "stupidifier" the thing in the Google pipeline that rewrites
- "obscure-js-lib" (think one that a previous dev used, that I now need to debug
- to "well-knowm-js-lib-with-kind-of-similar-name".
Or decide that when I search for Angular "mat-table" I probably want some tables with mats on even if they don't have anything to do with Angular.
It seems kind of unreasonable to expect Google to never experiment with their algorithm; and unfortunately at its core it is a zero sum game. You might be a winner today but a loser tomorrow.
if your concern is about revenue, sharing or referrals or ad placements or ??? then I would point out that it’s very unwise to build a business whose success is based entirely on the whims of another business.
I think search in general is becoming a very poor way to discover content as it is slowly getting planted by LLMs and also for years has been gamified by SEO.
I think that the right model for content discovery is either crowd sourced by a like-minded community, like hacker news or curated; if the curator or community drifts away from your interests, then you have to find a new one, but oddly enough, this can actually be done within the same framework.
I spent a few minutes looking at my search history (filtering chrome history by "google search"), and the vast of my queries are quite simple (e.g. people's names) that google does well on (in fact I find google search for people better than linkedin sometimes).
I also tried a few complex queries and compared them to Kagi:
"How much bitcoin does microstrategy own" -> Google returns the correct snippet from here[0] while Kagi only linked to articles about how much it acquired in the last few days.
"how to pronounce stratchery" -> Google returns the correct snippet from the Stratechery website[1] while Kagi's first result is a spam entry[2] with the wrong pronunciation (the second result is a tweet with the correct pronunciation).
I'd be curious to see more comparisons!
Edit: I just remembered Dan Luu's post (https://danluu.com/seo-spam/) but after looking through my search history, the queries he uses are not at all representative of my day to day searches.
[0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/digital-assets/2024/11/29/micro...
[1]https://stratechery.com/category/about/#:~:text=UPDATE%3A%20....
After switching to DuckDuckGo years ago, and Kagi last year, it's obvious every time I go back to Google how much they have lost the plot.
It'll take another decade before they lose dominance, but the writing is on the wall. Inertia and market position are the only reason they're still on top. Meanwhile, the younger generation barely uses web search, and the tech savvy are starting to drain away more and more quickly.
Startups should be excited. Rather than being the 800-lb gorilla that is going to come take your lunch, Google is the walking dead behemoth waiting to be harvested for conceptual parts.
Direct loss of knowledgeable people is real but it is not the main reason for these systems becoming black boxes.
For every knowledgeable person laid off there's twenty who stay and adjust to the new reality where their future at the company is much less certain. These adjustments vary person to person but literally nobody goes to say "Whoa, I better improve the documentation and share my knowledge so that I'm easier to fire!"
Perhaps there’s domestic Russian things that are censored but that’s far outside my use-case.
If only they'd down-rank Yelp, etc.
a. I know what website has this information and I go directly there (e.g. Wikipedia or Github or Google Maps)
b. I need a real human opinion or feedback (usually a Google search by Reddit domain only)
c. I need some well-known information that is easy to verify and this is the problem LLMs are very good at
This is >95% of my "surfing" activity. I think I would barely notice major search engines going down one day.
> I barely getting by, I’m eating at the food bank now, I had grossed $250,000 last year
It’s too bad he’s in such difficulty that he has to eat at a food bank, but where did all that money go? And, presumably, decent money earned in previous years?
In a cyclical business, or a business dependent on the vagaries of a giant monopolistic corporation that can change the rules seemingly arbitrarily, it’s prudent to save for a rainy day.
- Top of the page is slow loading AI regurgitation of deeply buried real web results, but often wildly inaccurate. No thanks.
- Next are a bunch of YouTube videos you don't want to watch where you have to wade through dozens of ads and hours of content to get the 3 seconds of information you're looking for. No thanks.
- "Related search" nonsense that nobody ever wants to see but if you click on those you will get more of the above. No thanks.
- Some useless unrelated shopping links you almost certainly don't want. No thanks.
- Way down at the bottom, 2-3 real web search results, non-keyword matched, and only from major mainstream outlets that are part of the Trusted News Initiative (Orwell?!) that have turned into glorified content farms which spit out non-expert written content on every conceivable subject for Googlebot (and now most of this content is AI written or from the cheapest possible third world contractors). No thanks.
Those "real web search results" used to be independent publishers that are referenced in this article, which were often topical experts with deep knowledge on their respective subjects, and those people and businesses have been destroyed over the last few years by Google updates that clearly prioritize their own slop and their "trusted" corporate ally content farms over the independent web.
They also disappears tons of content, and anything critical or outside of the mainstream acceptable narrative is nowhere to be found, sort of like searching for "tank man" from inside China, something everyone in the west used to poke fun of and point to as an example of digital totalitarianism.
If I were running Google search I would immediately roll back all of their search changes to somewhere around 2014-2016, which was roughly the last time you could find true keyword matched web results from a hugely diverse array of expert sources, and then very cautiously reassess. Obviously they would never do that, so I am not sure they can recover from their own demise.
BTW I don't find DuckDuckGo or Bing to be much better, they seem to just mimic Google results. Search is in real trouble.
I find that blogs and small sites do not have a chance when looking for a commercial products or when trying to find a review for a product. There is too much SEO spam and fighting for the top positions.
But if you are doing something that cannot be commercialised easily or is very niche your blog will have easy time on Google (programming is not a niche anymore).
Unable to compete with us on a level playing field, the old print media industries resorted to lawyers. They saw independent publishers getting a lot of traffic from Facebook, so they began threatening Facebook with lawsuits if they didn’t show their content more often, and our content less.
Can anyone explain this? How do you sue Facebook for giving bad recommendations?
I've been using AI tools to search now. I barely ever use a raw search bar anymore.
They have started breaking down search in Gmail as well, I've noticed that for a month or so. Just as it started on Google search, exact, verbatim queries, are not being returned in the result set.
Google's too big to fail already, as evidenced by the complete inept leadership it has had for the past decade, while the stock keeps going up.
Midwit's take would be : "But that's the job of a CEO, to make the stock go up". Nope, what I'm saying is that in spite of the CEO, it is a natural monopoly that is prone to grow. Them missing out the AI wave, which they pretty much created, will go down in history as top idiocracy in companies.
With Chrome's forced departure and ChatGPT actually giving you accurate results their hegemony could be threatened. I would have expected these things to be a wake up call for them, but nope, whoever runs the thing recently decided to start enshittifying Gmail now. Great work, pal, destroy whatever's left!