by gloxkiqcza
4 subcomments
- Doesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote:
> Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one."
Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-global-car-reckoning-is-here...
by RedShift1
3 subcomments
- I think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
by potato3732842
3 subcomments
- I said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine.
This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
- This has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system.
For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free.
Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
by swiftcoder
4 subcomments
- The first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
- Part of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models.
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
by Simulacra
2 subcomments
- Fyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login"
This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive.
If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
- Electronic parking brakes are so stupid. They offer no real value and eliminate the ability to safely use a secondary brake in an emergency.
by jeffalyanak
1 subcomments
- Corporations will do anything they can get away with. Without consumer-friendly regulation I don't really see why all corporations _wouldn't_ eventually do this type of thing in markets like this.
by FridayoLeary
0 subcomment
- >At this point, after spending about
$2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai
Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer,
you still can’t.
This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term.
To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
- They legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
- I believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
by RickJWagner
1 subcomments
- I’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator.
As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
- This is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
by alistairSH
4 subcomments
- BMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
- I’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer.
People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
- This "secure gateway" shit is already tiring.
Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through.
They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers".
AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?).
VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well.
--
As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option.
People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules.
That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login.
If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer.
All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
- My 2010 VW also needs a VCDS license to do this?
by GuestFAUniverse
6 subcomments
- "...satisfying handle..."
I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
- What's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW.
[1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
by kylehotchkiss
0 subcomment
- Stuff like this makes me hope more and more that my 4Runner actually lasts forever.
Trying to read through several perspectives. Does Korea not value DIY repairs on cars? Is the world so litigious now that a carmaker would be sued for a poorly executed DIY fix?
- It's possible to do this without disabling the brake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxYdB-LBB0&t=220s
- You needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it.
> https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s6-c6-platform-discussio...
"Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled.
"
by ReptileMan
1 subcomments
- Seems like a time for some regulations about what levels of repairability and interoperability products must have.
by userbinator
0 subcomment
- Unplug the actuator and power it directly to release the brake? Or is the interface to it also somehow DRM'd?
by LightBug1
1 subcomments
- Hyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens.
So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
by Eddy_Viscosity2
1 subcomments
- Heavy dystopian vide here. How long will they go full out with in-vehicle transactions, like charging a small fee each time you use the brake, or roll down a window.
- RIP hyundai, you're dead to me
by ChrisArchitect
0 subcomment
- Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45893991
- [flagged]
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