I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly.

I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because just the battery not the device. This way my expensive device and my data is not at risk.

I can use 40+ year old cameras, because I can just put a new battery in. This is not something you can do with newer device, e.g. and iPod and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models.

Battery tech moves on. There are now some batteries with charging ports on them. Other batteries offer more capacity than the original ones. Apple even did this once for me, when MacBook Air batteries were fairly easy to replace, I had mine replaced (it wore out) at the shop and they put a slightly bigger one in, which was the standard on the newer models.

Low cost phones will be most affected.

You could argue that the trend towards more energy dense batteries and wireless charging could enable new interesting form factors. Recent phones have magnetic connectors for external wireless chargers/batteries that snap to the back. Most of bulk and weight of a phone is for accommodating batteries. You could make an argument that making a phone with replaceable batteries is easier than ever. Many cameras have a bulge for the camera. The negative space of the rest of the phone could easily hold a swappable battery. How critical are those 3mm really?

This isn't even what drives obsolesce of phones, it's software updates.

If you really want to be able to self-swap your own battery, you can just buy an Android that has a replaceable battery.

Do we need to regulate something that isn't a problem? All regulation has downsides, is it worth paying this price here?

Now we can scale up volume, swap them out, be free to purchase from a different manufacturer, and have scaled up recycling services.

Yes, cameras are better now. But some phones had good cameras years ago. I bought new phones mainly because of battery decline and/or not getting security updates.

If one of these will be solved, that might change my phone buying behaviour.

I don't care whether a display is called "retina" , whether the next edition comes in the colour "space banana grey while lion tiger snail".

And I don't need to impress someone by proving that I'm able to buy a new phone either. Such behaviour gives me a good hint what to think about them though.

A phone that will have the battery situation solved is a killer argument. Then I'd like to have a software distribution on top that it's "mum compatible" and doesn't need nerd knowledge to maintain. Something that allows to use banking apps.

Let's see how it goes. Also I hope that there can be third party batteries without DRM-like behaviour.

So if you want phones to be usable for longer period, you need to standardize batteries.

Most consumers are like pigs who simply eat whatever the market throws into their trough, because ultimately they have better things to do than to get deeply involved in every purchasing decision.

> If replaceable batteries were better, they would already be available.

Developments like those in the smartphone market involve complex path dependencies. That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. Furthermore, “better” needs to be defined in some way. If we leave that up to the market, it becomes a circular argument: (1) The better product prevails in the market. (2) The product that prevails in the market is the better one. This circular reasoning is the biggest flaw in market ideology. I don't understand why people can't see that. The market moves in a certain direction, and they say, “There it is—progress!”

> Regulation hinders progress.

Perhaps, at times, the opposite is true. Even if we set aside the fact that “better” is defined in a circular manner here, the path-dependence of market development sometimes causes the market to get stuck in a local optimum. Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation.

> If you want a removable battery, you're simply in the minority as a consumer.

That’s another point where I just don’t get market ideologues: why should I reject regulatory intervention on the one hand, but on the other hand, if the market doesn’t give me what I want, I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? I’ve been missing removable batteries ever since they disappeared from the market. That must have coincided with the rise of smartphones. Come to think of it, maybe Steve Jobs is to blame. With iPods, there was still a public debate about the issue [1]. With the iPhone, it was just the way it was.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTcavAzopg

I'm confused why that still isn't the case today given all the EU headlines we've seen over the years.

There are plenty of old Dell and HP laptops with replaceable batteries which can only be found on eBay or some random seller that does who knows what under the refurbishing process.

> If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt

This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for this to be absolutely meaningless. Anything short of I can slide off the back cover and maybe unscrew two or three screws to replace the battery means that a lot of people are going to end up not being able to replace the batteries.

Too often, including in HN comments, those regulations are presented as "obviously" good policies. Well, data are better than assumptions.

It's okay to have idiosyncratic preferences (I certainly do), but people should recognize that this law will make phones _worse_ for most people, because this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want.

I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. But that's nonsense, because the law doesn't actually require people to replace batteries rather than replacing their phone, and by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so.

Now I rely on a few random individuals who, for all I know could be state agents or a ransomware organization to provide unofficial versions of Lineage so I can keep using it.

Battery isn't the only problem to avoid e-waste, but it's a start.

In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) but go to the supermarket and there are various fruits and vegetables each unit wrapped in plastic separately.

Now they are targeting phones but I also want my handheld and robot vacuum cleaners, electric toothbrushes, grass cutters, etc to also have batteries that can be removed and replaced without tearing down entire device and even learning soldering in some cases.

But then I think someone will figure out to make these batteries so expensive, that it won't change a thing.

I own a 2020 Kona EV. The battery cannot be upgraded. Eventually, I'll have to replace the entire car to get a longer range. BEVs should be mandated to have upgradable batteries and modular interfaces so that the shell can continue to be reused, the batteries (and BMS) upgraded, and old batteries easily recycled.

- The cheapest phones available in the EU (and purchasable online) all have glued-in batteries, not swappable ones. Forcing consumers to use phones with swappable batteries may just mean that the bottom of the market disappears, and consumers will be left paying more for their phones. And would they rather pay less or have swappable batteries?

- This will cause some cascade of engineering changes, which will make phones thicker or less waterproof. Again, it's not clear to me that the tradeoff is being fairly reflected here.

I thought I did everything right but then the thing wouldn't turn on. Could be a bad battery (ordered on Amazon so zero guarantees). Then when I tried to de-solder and re-solder my new battery the pads came off it. Very annoying.

And next, hopefully, replaceable software.

Which will do much more for phone longevity.

But laptops? Most 10 year old laptops would be fine for daily use, if only the battery would not be a hazard

This law will be tragic for Google and Apple. What will compel people to upgrade their functional phones?

Now, if I'm lucky, they will mandate both a replaceable battery and that the phones be ip55 or better, after battery replacement.

I use 15 Pro. I don't like the new aluminium iPhones much. So I just went it to Apple service center and had the battery replaced. It costs just 90 euros and I now have a brand new phone, basically.

I very much prefer my phone to be thinner, water resistant, and have a larger battery compared to being able to do it myself.

Phones have lost so much in a decade.

Lithium batteries in things running 24/7 unsupervised always makes me a bit nervous

Given the drafts vs final version of the bill/policy, looks like the battery now must be more easily replaced vs true camera-like battery hot swap.

Even with an iPhone turned off, NSA can still listen:

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/

But it is not super high on my list. Every 2 or 3 years I pay less than $100 to have a new OE battery installed, takes about an hour. There are other features I would put a higher priority on - like a good small phone option now and again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyL6hMZvWQ

What's next? Mandating that the screens be "replaceable" as well? Having used a fairphone before, I can tell from experience that easily replaceable parts are more prone to breaking from dust and moisture etc.

on the other hand, mandating easier to repair components is ineffective if the manufacturer does not support the parts sale or use parts otherwise widely available in the market.

this goes beyond for other consumer electronics. in the world of laptops, which are generally more repairable, i've had my own experience with a mid-range one from lenovo, the largest vendor worldwide. [1]

the laptop was from the covid-era and one of the refresh of their popular lineup which has seen minimal changes under the hood. despite that, when i had to replace its fans and battery, i had to look for third-party sellers for the components. they are quite easy to replace but as a regular consumer it is tricky to find the correct parts and not overspend on them.

maybe with the new silicon carbide batteries, we could have a "nokia bl-5c" moment, without the counterfeit explody part.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-sha...

It was done because:

* It makes phones massively easier to waterproof

* It allows for larger batteries

* It allows for more compact and lighter phones

Consumers, based on what they buy, have shown again and again that they want these features.

It also simplifies manufacture and lowers costs, which everyone likes.

I like removable batteries. If I had the option, I'd get a phone with that feature. But I know that I am certainly in the minority, as is almost everyone in this thread.

It's also worth pointing out that these days, battery and software have advanced to the point where degradation is quite slow in many cases. The phone will often outlive its useful life due to specs rather than battery.

A proper gasket and screws needs to be the standard solution here.

This is much more important, than batteries.

And they say this will save consumers money, but I will this not also make all new phones way more expensive?

[edit] didn’t see the fine print with the cycles requirement etc. so it seems Apple etc is still safe.

Removing it is one of the most annoying things ever in a phone. Yes, Bluetooth is getting better, but the jack always works perfectly. Why can't we have both?

*Edit. Not sure why people are downvoting. I didn't make a positive declaration. HN didn't used to be this way for completely milquetoast comments.

Batteries that can be popped out and replaced by your average consumer are something beyond that, and have certain consumer benefits like being able to bring along a backup or something, but aren't that important to me.

Maybe it's for our own good, maybe we have to suck it up and lose a little capacity to meet sustainability goals. Or maybe this won't do much for the environment.

Since 2020 phone hardware and especially battery has become much better, reliable and long lasting, at least at not dirt cheap ones. It will fail long after the screen brakes or the software updates stop. And a replaceable battery degrades the design.

On the other side a new battery makes an old phone like new. But again it only costs 15-20E to change it in a non-repl phone.

The only real reason to promote battery repl is to reduce e-waste.

if you gonna go about e-waste then go by repairability and part prices and part supply. then let the market sort itself out.

as someone said - either standardize batteries or ensure that device makers can cap the cost of battery replacement from 3rd parties.

most phones these days - the screen gets damaged before batteries.

what about laptops ? other e-devices ?

It only took me four or so hours to replace it...

No one on this planet should use their phone more than 2 hours per day. Period. More is just plain stupid.

However, doesn't Apple already provides this? You can go to store and switch your battery for like 60 EUR or so.

...

> [...] if specialised tools are required, they must be provided free of charge when the phone or tablet is purchased.

So if a family buys several phones and tablets that all use the same specialized tool to change their batteries they end up with several identical specialized tools?

From a reducing waste perspective wouldn't it be better to just require that the tool be available for free for some reasonable amount of time such as however long the manufacturer is required to support the device?

"EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652291

And 1 year later: "Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33358353

It's interesting to see almost all the exact sentiment. I think barring some niches, most people are happy with USB-C transition.

I understand the scepticism but the expectation of "perfection" from regulators (incremental improvement disliked) while fanfare for incremental startup / tech improvement is a weird, cognitive dissonance of HN

We are being gaslighted by Apple. They keep telling us that it's impossible to have a thin and light device with a user-replaceable battery, or even, heaven forbid, an SD card slot. I beg to differ: there are some compromises (it won't be as seamless perhaps and Jony Ive or whoever won't be able to wax poetic about the materials), but it can be done.

I would imagine something similar is true for waterproofing. There are certainly ways to have a separate battery and phone, with a waterproofed connector.

People shouldn't have to pay $$$ for a 128GB upgrade when a 1TB microSDXC card is under $200. It feels like a trick to sell cloud storage and new phones.

Without security updates, slack, bank software etc. will refuse to install and your phone will be a brick with replaceable batteries in 5-10 years. Or a single utility device.

Next time I will also by previous generation rather than the newest model.

if anyone can replace the phone, it's much harder to track how it was recycle with phone with battery. same with cars btw.

they trying to change the world by just issuing the order. That usually never works fine.

The inside of the phone should use standard screws and securing mechanisms, and batteries should not be glued to the phone.

I actually really like what Apple's been doing with its new batteries by sealing them in metal. That way if a user is being careless and accidentally slips a screwdriver under the back of their phone, the risk that they puncture their battery and start a fire is greatly reduced.

It secures the most dangerous component of your device in a way that makes it easy for anyone to remove and replace safely. I'm sure Apple has a robot to rip the battery out of its case at its recycling plant, and if the phone gets dropped in a lake or something, if that battery eventually catastrophically fails, at least it's wrapped in a suit of armor.