- I feel like there’s a difference between Virgil Abloh being brought in to work on an iteration of the Air Force 1s and simply ripping off a design from an unrelated company, presumably without permission, and making a few tweaks.
- The best way to make a really boring and generic product pop is... by copying a really boring and generic marketing page. God I miss the old internet. Give me some insane pixelated flash website over this bland trash any day. https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/flash-websites-in-the-early-...
by WaitWaitWha
2 subcomments
- > When you recreate someone’s creation, you learn their story: every piece of brilliance, tradeoff, and imperfection.
I vehemently disagree that this happens. What you see is the end result, and thinking and struggling through for each element is not present. It is like copying the Mona Lisa and claiming the relationship with the sitting model and her smell and feel and complaints about cramped neck is all in the copied painting.
(Please do not change the cursor, specially the size. There is a reason I changed it.)
- Is the state of the webdesign really in a point where people bluntly copy others work for commercial purposes and celebrate these acts on their blogs? I think the line is pretty clear here. I remember the old Dan Mall's article on this topic which is much more inspirational (and "correct"): https://medium.com/@danielmall/stealing-your-way-to-original...
by dghlsakjg
9 subcomments
- Copywork is an exercise where writers just copy verbatim another writers work.
If you haven’t done it, it is an extraordinary way to see how the greats work.
It also tends to improve your own writing skills - at least as long as you are copying from your betters.
This seems like the web design version of this.
by cjcenizal
5 subcomments
- My favorite quote that expresses this idea is from Mikhail Kalashnikov, designer of the AK-47: “Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good appreciation of everything that already exists in this field.”
by erikschoster
0 subcomment
- In a marketplace, this is theft. (Which, given this example is of a website for a for-profit product, seems appropriate.) In a community it's tradition. Building on traditions in a community (aka great artists steal) is different than trying to get yours in a marketplace. Art and community traditions aren't a competition until they are dragged into the marketplace.
- This isn't stealing in the "good artists copy, great artists steal" sense. This is just straight copying/plagiarism.
To "steal" effectively (in the Steve Jobs sense) means to pull details into your own work that are invisible to the naked eye. E.g., I'm going to "steal" the concept for DuckDB's new quack protocol as inspiration for handling a similar issue in my own embedded DB. It will exist as its own implementation/code, but the central idea or "aha" is what's "stolen."
- I kind of agree in the sense that stealing a good idea and executing it well is a skill. Copying someones site "pixel by pixel" seems disrispectful though and I don't know what there's to be proud of.
by pseudosavant
2 subcomments
- I've gone through my own cycle of this as a musician. Early in my music experience I was always obsessed with originality, and wouldn't learn a lot of existing pieces. At the stage I'm at now, I find great value in learning great songs and understanding why they work.
There is a lot of great work out there and if you are unwilling to be derivative in anyway, you'll intentionally avoid using and finding great things that others have discovered.
by darepublic
0 subcomment
- I remember working for a somewhat careless manager.. he just pointed at the chrome web dev store and said 'make it look like this'. I could have just copied everything wholesale but I actually handcrafted all the css, borrowing but generally using my own HTML structure, and js. The final result impressed even me. It made me feel.. if I worked on a team with real designers I could create something I would be proud of.
by dinkleberg
0 subcomment
- The key is stealing from multiple sources. Grab 3+ different sites that you really love and extract the elements that really resonate from each and meld them together into your own synthesis. Copying wholesale and tweaking a couple of things is lame IMO. That being said, pixel-perfect copywork is a fantastic exercise for improving your design skills.
by deltamidway
0 subcomment
- Stealing is a source of flattery. I've had logos I've designed outright copied. Jokes on them: They discovered they could not copyright the mark and had to rebrand (again).
Stealing is stealing unless you're really good at it.
by meander_water
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- > However, it’s your job to go down the rabbit hole, learn the 100%, and sprinkle in your 3%.
I would say that there is a big difference between stealing without acknowledgement, and stealing with acknowledgement and actively learning through reverse engineering.
by sscaryterry
0 subcomment
- Very, and really very few things, especially in software engineering is novel or new. Everything is the same old concepts, repackaged, tweaked, renamed. Cyclical in nature, fads come and go.
Stealing in this context might be tad harsh.
- Wallace finds something more than just a design problem. Explaining how people think. We don't think in isolation. We think through mimesis (also known as copying).
When a child is learning language, they're not making up new sounds. They're just copying. When a musician learns jazz, they first write down the solos exactly as they are played, before improvising. When a scientist understands a proof, they work through it step-by-step, following the same steps as the person who first thought of it. Copying something isn't the same as thinking. It is thinking.
The people who move fastest aren't the ones who are trying to be the most original. They're the ones who've studied the old masters so well that their new ideas seem natural, not forced. They have copied so much that they can finally trust their instincts to break the pattern.
In this sense, stealing is the mental work of becoming, not just copying, but creating.
- Stealing isn't a skill. Finding a way to not be held accountable for stealing is a skill. That's why lawyers charge so much.
- There's a popular quote: "good artists copy, great artists steal". I've always interpreted "steal" in that context as taking a technique or an inspiration from something, but making it fully your own in your execution (in contrast to direct copying, where you have just made a reproduction).
Given that interpretation, taking someone else's website and changing 3% of it feels more like copying than stealing, even more so when you see the side by side comparison image and it looks completely the same. I love to take inspiration from all over the place, but I like to think I transform it more into my own vision than the author here. I think making a direct copy of something can sometimes be a good learning exercise in the right context, but I would follow it up with your own novel work that maybe uses some concepts you learned from that copying exercise.
As an aside: the current Mintlify marketing site, not the one copied in the article, reads to me as heavily inspired by Stripe's marketing website. Not as direct a copy as the article here though.
- Does this level of copying not imply a copyright infringement?
- Summing up the first line with 3 advices: increase your vulnerability, or increase: transparency, creativity, and reflection. My first thought is this guy lives in a healthy non-toxic environment. Here he comes up with "stealing is a skillset" because skillfully determining what to change is huge, and a major effort of the focused change.
But that ain't stealing. That is copying. And then twisting it per your desires. Real stealing steals just one or two elements.
by lukeweston1234
0 subcomment
- I'm a fan of stealing as well, but I normally try to steal from a variety of sources. If you just copy a painting or novel and barely change anything, you're not an artist. But if you copy dozens of works from a variety of your favorite inspirations, at the end you are left with something recognizable, yet wholly new, and your own.
When 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre,
He'd 'eard men sing by land an' sea;
An' what he thought 'e might require,
'E went an' took - the same as me!
The market-girls an' fishermen,
The shepherds an' the sailors, too,
They 'eard old songs turn up again,
But kep' it quiet - same as you!
They knew 'e stole; 'e knew they knowed.
They didn't tell, nor make a fuss,
But winked at 'Omer down the road,
An' 'e winked back - the same as us!
- Rudyard Kipling
- Isn't this essentially what LLMs do?
Others have said it, but I'm not a fan of the cookie cutter approach. Build on UX patterns that work, but try new things too. It'll be hard to let your brand infuse the design when you're doing a line for line reproduction.
- And we wonder why everything is so unbearably boring & bland...
That comparison is quite the stretch imo, this feels more like copying homework. And if we are honest about what is being sold here: normalization of stealing other peoples work with AI and pretending you are a smarter, better person for it.
- Good artists copy, great artists steal?
Still hurts to be the one being stolen from though.
- Stealing is indeed a skill... and a sin (target missed) - by experience not good for soul.
Knowing what laws in the countries where your business evolve allow someone to get inspired (as state of the art) or reuse freely from other's work in specific industry is a more valuable skill... and better for soul. One could move smarter and faster with light soul around if rules of the game are known and all opportunities are considered and not missed.
- I think copying a website like this is very poor taste regardless. If I see you doing this, I immediately lose trust in your product and will immediately leave.
If you can't put the effort into the face of your product, how can I trust you to put effort into the product itself? Shitty behavior, with a shitty justification self-affirmation blogpost.
- Actual stealing is an even more impressive skill. Usually involves intensively trained sleight of hand, elaborate ruses, a very good understanding of theory of mind regarding the victim's attention, and planned deescalation paths in case you're caught.
- "It was around January 2020. I became the head coach of a youth basketball team.
I was a few months into my first job out of college, and I was feeling… empty"
no wonder... i d be feeling empty too if copying was my job
by artur_makly
0 subcomment
- Everything is a REMIX
https://youtu.be/X9RYuvPCQUA?si=W64XCy3RDiL2l80z
- “Stealing is a skill” is catchy but doesn’t express the underlying concept as well as your other principles. I would suggest “learn by copying good things”, or “quality work is where you find it” or something to that effect.
by michaelfm1211
1 subcomments
- This feels wrong.
- Off-topic; but the nerd in me complained:
In GURPS, stealing is two skills: filch and pickpocket.
- while the article may be making the process sound more meaningful than it actually is, I think there's a definite benefit to learning by trying to copy others, then making tweaks as you go. Honestly, it can be quite interesting to code your own version of a tool you plan to use, then compare the code to the original to see how you both handled things differently. Or to just look at a random website/app/footage of the same and try to figure out how everything works there.
by pir8life4me
0 subcomment
- This is only 3% originality and 97% theft. That's 3% unrealized profits.
Look into Yellowism: one signature and its 100% yours.
- The Tim Ferris school of thought. Can’t say I agree with it.
- It's stealing when copyright is infringed and when the stealing part is not acknowledged. Otherwise, can we called it "inspired by"?
- What do you do if your version becomes immensely more popular and successful then the thing you copied? When people start calling you a genius.
by myaccountonhn
0 subcomment
- Person learns the idea that being unethical pays of sometimes. And therefore, ethics don't matter.
- – when you get it wrong, people treat you with the contempt they reserve for a thief.
- Good artists copy, great artists steal.
but this article doesn't seem to be about that.
- Good artists copy, great artists steal, plagiarists copy and paste CSS wholesale
by c-hendricks
0 subcomment
- I find this despicable. Of course, recreate something to understand it better, learn from it, or just if you like it (there's plenty of songs I play because it's a fun song to play, or really nice to listen to).
But the intention to blatantly copy and then pass off as your own, that is just bereft of creativity.
- Mintlify "stole" their latest design off Stripe. It's very obvious.
- Most great products are nothing, but well-timed and well-executed stolen ideas.
by zeusdclxvi
0 subcomment
- Well, I have level 99 Thieving on RuneScape
by michaelfm1211
0 subcomment
- "Yes your honor, I copied it pixel-by-pixel."
- I spent way too much time trying to figure out if this is satire. I'm pretty sure it's not.
This is what we've come to as a society? Completely given up on creativity and skill for literally while talking up the joys of stealing.
- Anything for a buck!
by gaiagraphia
0 subcomment
- Would've been pretty dire if the original firestarter accused other humans of theft.
Copyright and it's huge industry of lawyers = an enforcer caste of the American empire.
I just struggle to care about people complaining about 'ideas being stolen'. Make it, or don't, it really doesn't bother me.
- These are solid conclusions/lessons to take away for people working in creative disciplines. Enforcing constraints on yourself can be rewarding and productive (the 3% rule), and forcing yourself to pay attention to other people's work is challenging but invaluable. Even less than stellar work has things to teach.
And can I just say, thank you for writing something you can read in five minutes. Incredibly grateful for someone who respects the reader by not dropping 3,000 words on them - easy though it may be.
- In UI they call that "Affordance"
by lofaszvanitt
0 subcomment
- Lots of people who pretend to be ostriches. :DDD And the really, really sad thing is that they can't even steal proper things, they steal the shit. Just like when yters and tiktokkers copy every stupid thing from each other, without thinking about it for 3 seconds. Total decline.
- > At the beginning of my career, I believed I’d be rewarded for the originality of my ideas. The truth is that you’re rewarded for identifying and solving problems efficiently.
The "I'll be original and get directly rewarded" vision is indeed naive.
However, sometimes you get to a point in which you design original ideas precisely so they will be stolen, and making that work for you is part of the design.
- Technically, everything is stealing and everyone is stealing others work, you might use an open source software, might build your own but uses someone else’s libraries, might take someone’s UI design like OP, someone might use someone’s components, dig deeper and someone is using the icons to build components, dig deeper and someone’s is using a software with builtin tools trained to make similar icons to others, really, there’s no bottom to it. And if you decide to reinvent the whole wheel from the little details, you definitely will have so many bugs and issues, and most likely no one will likes it because it’s fundamentally different than how they are used to use XYZ.
- Good artists copy. Great artists steal.
Plagiarists also steal.
- OK, Benjamin.
- This is copying, not stealing. Stealing means taking someone else's ideas, not their final output.
Copying creates trends, where everything looks and feels the same. Stealing an idea and creating something of your own, AKA remixing, is a much more valuable skill.
- I looked up stealing to ground this comment of mine:
> stealing: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
I admire Ben for being so direct. I wonder why we fetishize, herbicide and normalize theft, even deception today. When did this become normal, and why draw the line at digital creation and not just allow theft of physical objects, too? (I mean I get the arguments about copying someones digital creation doesn't really mean you took what they had from them, you just made a copy, though this doesn't logically apply to if I also physically stole someones product and made a copy since copyright/patent protection likely applies)
by IAmGraydon
0 subcomment
- Don't do this. It's really a terrible idea. He's comparing Virgil Abloh being asked to create an evolution of the Air Force 1 and blatantly ripping off an already boring website (and in the same product category, no less). The two have nothing in common, obviously. You should build your own identity, and you do this by understanding your customers. If you want to create a boring copy of already existing work, well that's what we have LLMs for.
That said, we all take influence from the work of others who we admire. If you're going to steal, take the parts you like best from 10 different projects, improve every single one, and recombine them in a new way. That's how artists "steal".
- and this is why artists get up in arms about AI is because they know they are guilty of stealing and that all of their work is largely just inspirations upon inspirations and now they have to compete with AI
It reminds me of this old country song:
No idea's original, there's nothing new under the sun
It's never what you do, but how it's done
What you base your happiness around? Material, women, and large paper
That means you inferior, not major
No idea's original, there's nothing new under the sun
It's never what you do, but how it's done
What you base your happiness around? Material, women, and large paper
That means you inferior, not major
by mv_d5339e31
0 subcomment
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